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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:10 pm 
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i'm a new vespa owner and just recently got my motorcycle license. apologies in advance if i'm asking questions people have asked before.

last week i got a ticket for not having proper eye protection while riding and now i'm wondering if its worth fighting the ticket or should I just suck it up and count this as a lesson learned?

i was riding with my helmet on and sunglasses, but the shield was up. i genuinely thought regular sunglasses were all that was required. also, i've been using a hand me down helmet, so part of the reason i wasn't using the shield, was because it was a little bit scratched.

i went back and re-read the DMV Law about eye protection and it says:
"All motorcycle operators must wear approved eye protection even if the motorcycle is equipped with a windshield. Any windshield must also be of an approved type. Prescription or made-to-order safety glasses may be used if the user can present written certification that they meet DMV standards. The eye protection must be manufactured in conformity with the regulations established by the American National Standard Institute (ANSI – Z87.1). However, the DMV recommends approved goggles or a face-shield for full protection."

The line that threw me off in this law is "the DMV recommends....". Doesn't the word "recommend" suggest that you have an option not to do it? Like its just a suggestion?

Is this worth fighting? I don't want to take time off from work and deal with going to court, if i don't have much of a case. Also, I don't know if it would help my case to prove to the judge that I have now replaced the shield, have now bought regular goggles, have now bought a new helmet?

Any suggestions or ideas?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:35 pm 
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You should be able to find several threads on this, but the bottom line is that in NYC they will ticket you if you have your face shield up.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:47 pm 
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The line about "the DMV recommends" relates to a suggestion that riders should wear a full face helmet or riding goggles, as opposed to approved sunglasses. But you must wear approved eye protection of some kind.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:16 pm 
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Check your sunglasses spec from the manufacturer to see if they're z87.1 compliant.

The clear eye protection goggles sold at Home Depot for $2 are Z87.1 compliant, for example.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:02 pm 
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I fight any ticket I get. Go to the hardware store and get some safety glasses. They come in clear,tinted and mirrored your choice. Then go to court and show that they are z87.1 compliant. The z87.1 will be on the glasses.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:13 pm 
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[quote="PossiblyMaybe"]i'm a new vespa owner and just recently got my motorcycle license. apologies in advance if i'm asking questions people have asked before.

last week i got a ticket for not having proper eye protection while riding and now i'm wondering if its worth fighting the ticket or should I just suck it up and count this as a lesson learned?

i was riding with my helmet on and sunglasses, but the shield was up. i genuinely thought regular sunglasses were all that was required. also, i've been using a hand me down helmet, so part of the reason i wasn't using the shield, was because it was a little bit scratched.

i went back and re-read the DMV Law about eye protection and it says:
"All motorcycle operators must wear approved eye protection even if the motorcycle is equipped with a windshield. Any windshield must also be of an approved type. Prescription or made-to-order safety glasses may be used if the user can present written certification that they meet DMV standards. The eye protection must be manufactured in conformity with the regulations established by the American National Standard Institute (ANSI – Z87.1). However, the DMV recommends approved goggles or a face-shield for full protection."

It is always worth fighting a ticket. Go to court and bring your helmet, glasses etc.. and explain to the "judge."
I have a great respect for NY's finest but they do make errors and the "judges" know that. They will often play Monte Hall and make a deal.

The key is to get it dismissed or reduced to a violation with no points because the points will stay with you for 36 to 40 months.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:43 pm 
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Motosport wrote:
PossiblyMaybe wrote:
i'm a new vespa owner and just recently got my motorcycle license. apologies in advance if i'm asking questions people have asked before.

last week i got a ticket for not having proper eye protection while riding and now i'm wondering if its worth fighting the ticket or should I just suck it up and count this as a lesson learned?

i was riding with my helmet on and sunglasses, but the shield was up. i genuinely thought regular sunglasses were all that was required. also, i've been using a hand me down helmet, so part of the reason i wasn't using the shield, was because it was a little bit scratched.

i went back and re-read the DMV Law about eye protection and it says:
"All motorcycle operators must wear approved eye protection even if the motorcycle is equipped with a windshield. Any windshield must also be of an approved type. Prescription or made-to-order safety glasses may be used if the user can present written certification that they meet DMV standards. The eye protection must be manufactured in conformity with the regulations established by the American National Standard Institute (ANSI – Z87.1). However, the DMV recommends approved goggles or a face-shield for full protection."

It is always worth fighting a ticket. Go to court and bring your helmet, glasses etc.. and explain to the "judge."
I have a great respect for NY's finest but they do make errors and the "judges" know that. They will often play Monte Hall and make a deal.

The key is to get it dismissed or reduced to a violation with no points because the points will stay with you for 36 to 40 months.

No points for eye protection violation. If you think it's worth your time(going to court, taking time from work, etc) to fight it, go ahead.
Traffic court judges usually side with the cop. Just my opinion.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:10 pm 
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Thanks everybody, I think I'm going to try to fight it.

Follow up question - has anyone recently got a ticket for no eye protection in NY? What does this ticket cost? Is it odd that it's been two weeks since I received this ticket and nothing's come in the mail about it?

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:36 am 
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I was a passenger on the Italian opera singer Andrea Boccelli's scooter recently, and a cop ticketed him for improper eye protection. Which is really crazy, because Andrea is blind! Andrea kept his mouth shut about that part, though. :-)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:33 am 
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PossiblyMaybe wrote:
Thanks everybody, I think I'm going to try to fight it.

Follow up question - has anyone recently got a ticket for no eye protection in NY? What does this ticket cost? Is it odd that it's been two weeks since I received this ticket and nothing's come in the mail about it?

Thanks!


What are you expecting to get in the mail? You received a "summons" to appear in court on a particular day and time. If you do not appear you'll get mail and it won't be good news.

If you send it in with a plea of guilty or not guilty you will get a bill. If possible go to the court before the actual date, speak to an ADA and play let's make a deal. This is not possible in all courts. You might want to call ahead of time.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:37 am 
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Probably a TVB ticket with no plea bargaining available.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:23 pm 
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I think it's $90. Is it worth losing a day's pay to fight it? You clearly were caught with no visor and non-approved eyewear.
Good luck


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:27 pm 
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[quote="Stan"]I think it's $90. Is it worth losing a day's pay to fight it? You clearly were caught with no visor and non-approved eyewear.
Good luck

If there are no points then I am with Stan. He is a wise man.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:57 pm 
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Stan wrote:
I think it's $90. Is it worth losing a day's pay to fight it? You clearly were caught with no visor and non-approved eyewear.
Good luck


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I don't think it's clear that his eyewear was not approved. We know nothing more than he was wearing sunglasses. Many Oakley's exceed the Z87.1 requirements, but probably very few people know that.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:59 pm 
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First of all if we're going to discuss the protective eyewear law for motorcycles (and scooters) we should at least know what the law really is and where to find it. You need to go to the New York Codes Rules & Regulations, Title 15, which is where we here in New York State keep all the doo-doo about what the Commissioner of the DMV says. Whenever you see a reference to the DMV Commish in the NYS Vehicle & Traffic Law, this is where you need to look.

http://www.dos.ny.gov/info/nycrr.html

There is just one chapter in Title 15. You'll find the laws about helmets and eyewear under Subchapter D, part 54:

Quote:
* Section 54.11.* Eye protection.
A motorcyclist may use any eye protection device that has been manufactured in conformity with the American National Standard Institute's Z87.1 standard Occupational and Educational Personal Eye and Face Protection Devices. A motorcyclist may not operate a motorcycle unless he or she is wearing such eye protection.

The introduction is also a good read for reasons I'll get into later:

Quote:
* Section 54.1.* Introduction.
(a) The operation of motorcycles has been found to result in a high incidence of disabling personal injuries. The effects of such injuries extend beyond the person injured to the family of the person injured and to the people of this State. Any disabling personal injury may have an economic impact on the public by requiring the furnishing of medical, rehabilitative or welfare aid or assistance. Therefore, the prevention or mitigation of injuries resulting from the more common types of motorcycle accidents by the use of protective helmets, goggles, face shields or wind screens is deemed to be a legitimate concern of this State.
(b) Chapter 979 of the Laws of 1966 provides that the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles shall establish specifications with respect to protective helmets, goggles, face shields and wind screens for motorcycles, and that on and after January 1, 1967, no protective helmet, goggles, or face shield may be sold, offered for sale or distributed for use on a motorcycle, unless such device is approved by the Commissioner of Motor Vehicles in accordance with the regulations established herein.

So too are the definitions:

Quote:
* Section 54.2.* Definitions.
(a) Protective helmet. A device primarily intended to protect the upper part of the wearer's head against a blow.
(b) Goggles or face shield. An eye protection device as defined in American National Standard Institute's Z87.1 as most recently amended.
(c) [Reserved]
(d) Wind screen. A device mounted on a motorcycle forward of the rider designed to deflect wind and/or small flying objects from the body and face of the rider.

What I need to first point out is that 54.11 makes it very clear, you must have ANSI Z87.1 -compliant eye protection. Period. If you look at a stock clear face shield on any legitimate DOT -approved helmet you'll see an ANSI Z87.1 and/or VESC-8 marking somewhere on it.

You'll also note the word "wear" is used. You do not wear a wind screen. If that's not clear enough consider that the law for wind screens relies on a different federal requirement that has nothing to do with ANSI Z87.1 so in a word, a wind screen is not sufficient eye protection for New York law.

Lastly there is some confusion about goggles versus spectacles. The VTL uses the word goggles, instructional texts recommend goggles, but Title 15 redefines goggles as any eye protection that conforms to ANSI Z87.1. So goggles are not necessary, just a good idea if you're really concerned about dust and dirt, flotsam and jetsam, whatever.

I'll use the mention of dust and dirt as a handy segue into the matter of being pulled over for having the face shield cracked open slightly. Which by the way is a stunt only found performed by the NYPD, and which is often used for no other purpose than to establish the necessary "reasonable suspicion", however phony, to do some more fishing and get at your license, registration, insurance, green card, Masonic affiliation, etc. :roll:

If the cop actually has the nerve to ticket you for this or for having the shield fully open at a stop light you're going to need to point out in court that ANSI Z87.1 is a specification meant to protect against projectile impacts, not ingress of airborne dust/dirt, and that the legislative intent of the law per the introduction above was meant to protect motorcycle operators (and interestingly, not their passengers) against grave disabling injuries, not a friggin' scratched cornea, and that it was never meant to be enforced at a stand-still where you are subject to no more risk of crippling eye injury or loss of motor vehicle control than a pedestrian. EDIT: ANSI Z87.1-2003 defines no performance criteria at all for the prevention of dust or splash. So any officer claiming (or ALJ insisting) that the eyewear is meant to protect you from airborne dust/dirt can get stuffed.

In my experience, reciting these laws in front of the cop has always dissuaded them from writing such a ticket. YMMV. If it does get as far as court I can tell you for a fact that reciting the law and speaking about intent is going to make the cop angry and belligerent and if you can manage to stand your ground the judge should rule in your favor. Just remember the rules of administrative court, which is that reasonable doubt isn't gonna cut it. You have to prove you are correct. Remember that.

As for whether or not to fight such a summons you need to make your own value judgement. I consider it a civic responsibility to fight every summons.

Finally, about ANSI Z87.1. In the legal definitions it does say "as most recently amended." That could make things dicey. There are several iterations of the standard (1989, 2003, 2010), and each have different requirements about what markings must exist and where (temples, lenses) and there is a variance for prescription lenses too. The question becomes whether the judge will hold your feet to the fire on having eyewear that complies with the 2010 standard specifically. I don't know but feel that they probably won't care and if you don't point out that subtlety, probably won't even know.

More on the eyewear subject coming shortly - please stand by for a couple of hours...

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Last edited by NYMSTF Brad on Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:56 pm 
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Wow Brad. Thank you for all of that. Thank you everyone else too. I've only had my license 2 months and only owned a Vespa for 1 month, so this is all new to me.

A few more details - I was wearing Ray Ban Wayfarers (4141). I'm pretty certain those are not Z87.1 compliant. I have tomorrow afternoon off from work, so technically - I wouldn't have to miss work to go into court. I was stopped at a motorcycle checkpoint (I had license, registration, and insurance), so all they could ding me on was eye protection.

I was going to approach this like it was a fix-it ticket, go into court, say I didn't realize that's what the law meant (wording was ambiguous), and show the goggles proving that i am now compliant. That's all I got, lol.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:41 pm 
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Protective eyewear continued...

About the ANSI Z87 required markings, it's a bit difficult to make sense of because it's different for each of three years (1989, 2003 and 2010), slightly different for prescription eyewear, and in some cases different between goggles and spectacles as well. I would love to get my hands on the ANSI documents for each year to figure it out myself instead of relying on various web pages of re-hashed and re-interpreted information. But here is what I have been able to discern:

It seems that in 2010, spectacle lenses only need to bear a manufacturer's logo and optionally a plus-sign to indicate impact* rating but goggle lenses would be marked with the logo and Z87/Z87+. Both temples would need the logo but only the front of one temple would need the full Z87 (or Z87+) marking. Potentially confusing point when reading the Z87.1 spec is that Z87+ is spoken of as "impact rated" and Z87 "non impact rated". But that doesn't mean Z87 is not sufficient to protect from impacts. Z87 is still considered protective eyewear and is sufficient protection in New York State. Z87+ protects from greater impacts and new to 2010, also mandates a particular degree of coverage which generally make it reserved for goggles and spectacles with side shields.

Also more on the airborne dust/dirt issue covered earlier, in 2010 ANSI adds additional markings for eyewear rated for protection from dust/dirt. They are D3, D4 and D5 and they are not required for motorcycle use in New York.

In 2003 the + marking was reserved for eyewear meeting a higher level of impact protection. Otherwise marking requirements appear to be similar, i.e. spectacles only require manufacturer names/logos on the lenses but goggles would also have Z87 on the lenses.

The 1989 specification required Z87 marks on major frame/housing components but lenses only need the manufacturer's logo regardless of eyewear type.

Also note that prescription eyewear would be ANSI Z87.2 and marked as such. I worry that some ignoramus cop might get his panties in a twist about that so keep that in mind. There is no difference! ANSI Z87.2 == Z87.1 non-RX.

Beca Boo asks: "I was wondering what you could suggest what riders do on the police crackdown of improper eyewear?"

She is correct in saying this practice is unique to NYC, at least to the extent that people are being pulled over just for having a face shield that is slightly open. First understand that the practice is often just a tactic for circumventing your Fourth Amendment rights, which make it unconstitutional for police to pull you over just to check your paperwork. They invent reasonable suspicion (think in terms of probable cause) to pull you over. It's not far from them saying they heard your muffler bearings squeaking, but it satisfies a legal requirement. The checkpoints also are often an abuse of your Fourth Amendment rights. If they say they're doing a "bike check" or "safety check" but then neglect to perform even a cursory equipment check, instead focusing solely on your paperwork, they are in violation of the decision in Delaware v. Prouse.

Also bear in mind that not all states are as picky as New York State about motorcyclists' eyewear. In fact most are not. In neighboring New Jersey a skinny set of John Lennon specs is enough. Nobody would even care if the lenses are made of window glass that will turn your eyeballs into a coarse stew in an accident. :o

The best solution to this problem is to follow the damn law!!! But I also suggest that if you are pulled over because your face shield is open an inch and especially if you're not (!) given a summons for it, you file a complaint with the CCRB (Civilian Complaint Review Board, which is essentially the citizen -facing side of the NYPD's Internal Affairs Bureau). And CC the Governor's office. CCRB complaints are easy to file by phone, mail or even email.

No matter the outcome of a CCRB/IAB complaint, it stays in the cops' files. If cops get enough of these complaints they'll stop their bullshit. If you can get a cop to admit their bullshit was an order from above, find out who the commanding officer was and file another complaint against the CO.

If you have a bike cam or helmet cam and get proof of constitutional violations, i.e. you ask them if they intend to do an equipment check and they say no, and you say all you wanted was to check my paperwork and they say yes, then that is something you can take to the ACLU. I actually have exactly such a video. I'd like to have more just to prove it's not an isolated incident. It's not enough to bust a couple of cops - we need to bust the NYPD.

Something else, if someone is willing to participate with some team spirit here, is to file a Freedom of Information Act request to the NYPD to get copies of whatever they are using for guidelines and training on motorcycle eye protection law enforcement. Someone PLEASE grab this and let us know what you get back. Remember FOIL requests need to be very specific so pay some attention to your wording.

vesparazzi posted an article from the New York Freedom Riders. I love the NYFR and what they do but be careful with their stuff. They're not gonna bail you out when you piss off the wrong cop by using bad advice. They cite an old document that was apparently used by the NYSP, and I'm sure that's been fixed, but the NYSP is another issue altogether. That document did state that Z87 markings would be on temples and lenses and that is partially wrong because it depends on the year of the standard useed. Link: http://apps.nymstf.org/NYS_MC_Training_2010.pdf. They also talk about "New York State local law enforcement" which is, well a puzzling construct. Let's just say the NYPD has fuck-all to do with the NYSP. And you can demand a search warrant but you better pray the cop is in a good mood. If you're lucky they'll just offer you a polite education about what does and does not require a warrant. :lol:

ANOTHER THING WE CAN DO is get copies of the ANSI Z87.1 standards themselves. This costs money; they don't give it away. I think it's something like $70 for each and for the sake of thoroughness there are three different versions. If someone here knows someone in a company that manufactures protective eyewear please pull some strings and get us copies of the standards. I'll be happy to buy 'em dinner. If not, let's pool some cash and buy the stuff from ANSI.org. I'll be happy to scan it in and host it on my web site. These documents could be an excellent resource as evidence in NYC's administrative courts.

I found one but only one version free on the Internet so far:

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/ibr ... 3.svg.html

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Last edited by NYMSTF Brad on Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:48 pm 
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PossiblyMaybe wrote:
Wow Brad. Thank you for all of that. Thank you everyone else too. I've only had my license 2 months and only owned a Vespa for 1 month, so this is all new to me.

A few more details - I was wearing Ray Ban Wayfarers (4141). I'm pretty certain those are not Z87.1 compliant. I have tomorrow afternoon off from work, so technically - I wouldn't have to miss work to go into court. I was stopped at a motorcycle checkpoint (I had license, registration, and insurance), so all they could ding me on was eye protection.

I was going to approach this like it was a fix-it ticket, go into court, say I didn't realize that's what the law meant (wording was ambiguous), and show the goggles proving that i am now compliant. That's all I got, lol.

Good luck and let us know how it goes. Maybe the ALJ will take pity.

Those Ray Bans have glass lenses so I guarantee you they're not Z87.1 rated.

-Brad

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:02 pm 
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Thanks for all the research. Right now my main concern are the glasses and visor bit which is new news to me. In short ( cause my head is spinning from this)

1. I need to ride with Z87 rated glasses that may or may not have markings on them stating that (dependent on the year manufactured).

2. I can get a summons for riding with my visor open or cracked open regardless of if I have Z87 rated glasses on.


What about 3/4 helmets with no visor? How are you supposed to ride with your visor down all the time?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:26 pm 
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I know this isn't exactly what you're looking for Brad but it does have some interesting info on page 2 about eye coverage. http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebse ... 6E666666--


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